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Post by lich on Apr 19, 2003 9:45:51 GMT -5
"I plan on doing the right thing and telling the truth. And as long as I do that, I will be fine. And I won't care if . . . And I don't care if . . . And I don't care about . . . " -Jmays.
You ask only for advice which supports your position. I hope you don't plan on becoming a detective.
Somehow the polygraph is different than other tests, right? It's ok for people to figure out what is involved in the physical tests or written tests or oral boards, but you must somehow be a criminal to want to cheat the "lie detector". I'll take every advantage I can get, especially when I know the polygraph test is predicated on the dishonesty of the testers.
I'm shocked that you insist on walking blindly into the one test upon which you can't improve. You can retake the physical or written tests, but if you fail the polygraph you will find it nearly impossible to get another chance. Yet you would insult the very people who have been burned by and have learned from the test and are willing to share their knowledge of what you need to do to protect yourself from false readings.
Before you call Mr. Maschke an idiot or refer to his views as stupid again, I'd like to suggest you shut your naive yapper and go take the polygraph test at the local police department. If you pass, you can smugly feel you were right and go on to the next part of the process. If you fail the test, you'll be back here whining about being blacklisted for something you didn't do and oh, if only you knew what the testers were really doing with their post-interview questions or subtle steering of the interview into your admissions of guilt.
You may think you're doing the right thing by playing the game as they would have you play it. Try to remember you're not going to be treated as a fellow officer and nobody there is going to help you. You're just some dumb ass civilian who can't keep his story straight about how many joints he smoked in high school and your folder just landed in the deferral bin. At least you tried to be honest. Maybe the recruiter can get you that sweet gig as mall security guard. You certainly have the right attitude.
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Post by robepswannabe on Apr 19, 2003 12:42:25 GMT -5
Jmays,
A word of advice. A good constable looks at both sides of an argument objectively and then makes a decision based on the information (good and bad). To vent on antipoly guy whether he is right or wrong is not the way to go about it jmays. You came to this forum looking for advice, but are not willing to listen to both sides of the argument, are you going to do this as a cop? Are you going to call a speeder a 'freakin idiot' after you stop him? I am sure you wont because you seem like an intelligent, articulate person.
Anyways, good luck with your poly and let the forum know how you do.
ps. Do you think police services monitor these forums? I don't know but was just wondering. Cheers!
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jmays
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Post by jmays on Apr 21, 2003 8:14:33 GMT -5
Lets see. 1 + 1 equals what? Yeah 2! In my first opening statement, I said:
I said "PLEASE don't post ANY anti-polygraph "crap," because I have SEEN IT ALL. I have read it all. I have gone to the websites and I have read the anti-polygraph material. I have seen it. And I didn't want my question, the question in which I was seeking advise to be cluttered up with the exact nonsense that it indeed was cluttered up with, anyway. See, I wanted to know what types of things to expect. Not because I have done anything I am worried about, just a general, natural curiosity.
I know you aren't talking to me, right? Are you talking to me? I didn't think so.
So as you can see, my polite request for this discussion to not get cluttered up with USELESS NONSENCE has failed. I guess people don't respect other people's request for a pleasant discussion on a certain process of a police applicants drive to be a LEO. Isn't that what this website is all about? Others sharing useful information to those who are up and coming in the law enforcement community? I sure did think so?
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jmays
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Post by jmays on Apr 21, 2003 8:21:37 GMT -5
Jmays, A word of advice. A good constable looks at both sides of an argument objectively and then makes a decision based on the information (good and bad). To vent on antipoly guy whether he is right or wrong is not the way to go about it jmays. You came to this forum looking for advice, but are not willing to listen to both sides of the argument, robepswannabe, that is totally not my position. I said at least twice already in this discussion that I have read the anti-polygraph material. That wasn't the point to this discussion whatsoever. I said in my opening statement that I have read the anti-polygraph material, and I was simply seeking advice, or a general curiosity about the polygraph test. Instead, a somewhat argument has erupted about my insensitivity towards the anti-polygraph wacko's. Whatever. If this isn't going to be a place where people can come for help and advise (like intended), then shame on those who have led this site astray. |
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Post by George Maschke on Apr 21, 2003 9:26:56 GMT -5
John,
You claim you have read the material available on the anti-polygraph websites, but it's clear that if you have indeed read it, you have not understood it. It is glaringly obvious from the following post of yours that you do not understand what a "probable-lie control question" is:
A "probable lie control question" is one that the examiner secretly expects you to lie about. Such questions are deliberately vague, and you are expected to have trouble answering with an unequivocal "no." One of the most commonly used control questions is, "Did you ever take anything from an employer?" See Chapters 3 & 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector for a fuller explanation of control questions.
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Post by robepswannabe on Apr 21, 2003 11:42:12 GMT -5
Well, Good Luck on the poly anyway.
Cheers!
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Post by robepswannabe on Apr 21, 2003 12:05:19 GMT -5
Quote " do they really want me to put down the 5 grapes i ate while I was browsing the produce department? Or are they talking about possible car stereo's I have stolen? If I list all the small stolen, that would be a waste of time especially if they don't care about it. " End quote
Ok then some constructive advice to this question. The simple answer is "yes"...ANYTHING you remember before you are hooked up you have to disclose... EVERYTHING! The reason why is that if you do not disclose it because you think it is trivial (ie. 5 grapes or whatever) you will remember that when you are asked that type of question on the poly and you will have a reaction. The poly examiner will then ask you why you had a reaction to that question...you tell him...he may or may not think.."well if he hides something that trivial what else is he hiding".....and your original intention was not to 'hide' it but you just thought it wasn't worth mentioning...Anyways jmays that is only my opinion and from what I have heard from other LEO's who went through the polygraph it can be gruelling.
I am not sure about your PD but here they will show you the questions they are going to ask you so there is no ambiguity and you can't say "I wasn't prepared for that type of question"........
Just remember to be truthful and answer only the question asked. I trust this meets your criteria of advice you asked for in your first post!
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Post by George Maschke on Apr 21, 2003 12:17:09 GMT -5
robepswannabe,
Your advice might meet with Mr. Mays' approval, but it's not quite accurate. You write that "if you do not disclose it because you think it is trivial (ie. 5 grapes or whatever) you will remember that when you are asked that type of question on the poly and you will have a reaction." But this is precisely what the polygraph examiner wants when he asks, "Did you ever take anything of value from an employer?" Reactions to such "probable-lie control questions" are then compared to reactions to "relevant" questions -- the ones that count -- like, "Did you ever commit an undetected felony crime?" If the former reactions are greater, you pass. If the latter reactions are greater, you fail.
Thus, if you spill your guts while answering the "control" question, listing every little thing you may have pilfered, and then feel completely relaxed when you deny having ever taken anything from an employer (other than that which you've already disclosed), you have actually increased your chances of "failing" the polygraph (and getting DQed).
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jmays
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Post by jmays on Apr 21, 2003 12:37:38 GMT -5
Quote " do they really want me to put down the 5 grapes i ate while I was browsing the produce department? Or are they talking about possible car stereo's I have stolen? If I list all the small stolen, that would be a waste of time especially if they don't care about it. " End quote Ok then some constructive advice to this question. The simple answer is "yes"...ANYTHING you remember before you are hooked up you have to disclose... EVERYTHING! The reason why is that if you do not disclose it because you think it is trivial (ie. 5 grapes or whatever) you will remember that when you are asked that type of question on the poly and you will have a reaction. The poly examiner will then ask you why you had a reaction to that question...you tell him...he may or may not think.."well if he hides something that trivial what else is he hiding".....and your original intention was not to 'hide' it but you just thought it wasn't worth mentioning...Anyways jmays that is only my opinion and from what I have heard from other LEO's who went through the polygraph it can be gruelling. I am not sure about your PD but here they will show you the questions they are going to ask you so there is no ambiguity and you can't say "I wasn't prepared for that type of question"........ Just remember to be truthful and answer only the question asked. I trust this meets your criteria of advice you asked for in your first post! robepswannabe, thank you for your REAL[/i] and helpful advise. I do appreciate it.  To the others trying to get hits on their website, no one cares. Especially me.  |
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Post by lich on Apr 21, 2003 16:27:12 GMT -5
Be sure to let us all know how you do, jmays. I'm sure someone out there must be rooting for you. And we can all learn from your experience.
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Post by PATrooper4347 on Apr 21, 2003 18:11:57 GMT -5
I have read most of this post and find it very amusing. Jmays, I understand your plight with reciving advice concerning the poly and your wish to not recieve the anit poly banter. From what you have posted it does seem that you have some idea of how you will approach the ploygrpah with truth and honesty.
The "anti ploy guy" you are so disturbed about is actually giving you what you asked for. He may not belive it is fair but he has provided you with some insight as to how the test works, and did give examples of how the questions are designed to draw certian responses which are used to weight against other responses. This is some advice you may want to consider before your poly.
You claim you want to be in law enforcement, as do all of us here, remember that even your requests will not always be met with your exact approval, be mindful of manners to others, weather they are doing as you requested or not, this job is about keeping a cool head even when things are not going the way you want them to. Just some insight.
Anyway, best of luck on the polygraph, weigh the advice you get, and make your best choices, and prepare as you see fit. Good luck
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Post by George Maschke on Apr 22, 2003 1:55:13 GMT -5
John Mays suggests that I am "trying to get hits on my website." For the record, all the information on AntiPolygraph.org is free, the site includes no commercial advertising, and neither I nor anyone else receives any material benefit in cash or in kind from it. The site was founded by polygraph victims for the purpose of exposing and ending polygraph waste, fraud, and abuse. We don't want to see others wrongly branded as liars and blacklisted. I have referred to information on AntiPolygraph.org because it's more convenient than posting it here (it's quite detailed). John Mays, you might want to post any remaining questions you have about polygraphy on the PolygraphPlace.com message board: www.polygraphplace.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/Ultimate.cgiYou won't have to worry about antipolygraph "crap" there, because the polygraph operators who run the message board censor it. |
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Post by mikegee on Apr 22, 2003 8:55:38 GMT -5
Ohhh for the day that the world is PERFECT. To any of you who are applying for agencies-face reality.The poly is pretty much here to stay( at least until the create something else that is also subjective and can be used to knock out untruthful or questionable candidates).Is anything perfect? no. Not even Police officers/Deputies / Constables, OR EVEN THE COMMUNITIES THEY SERVE. I've taken the poly, and have known far too many people who have also taken and passed it for it to be written off.Does it always work or is it always accurate? (Remember that Rafael Perez passed his poly to get into LAPD, and he was a dirt bag). If thats not used then what? Why even bother doing backgrounds at all.Geo Maschke always appears when the poly issue is brought up here(I'm surprised he hasn't been on other police related sites or chat rooms) and wants to express his opinion, BUT his opinion is just that, and it really won't help you get hired!The poly isn't always some big conspiracy used to run off "good candidates"- Face in this type of work, you just have to be honest even when it comes back to bite you in the *ss!Remember that the poly is just another test to be PASSED for you that are determined and meet the criteria for the agencies you are applying for. And Yes, as I don't like to tout it, but I have 13 yrs in Law enforcement and the people I work with as well as agencies that are near us all use the poly and ALL HAVE HONEST Officers and recruits working for them. Don't let fear and paranoia steer you off your paths. Although some people get bad "breaks" MOST DON'T. Honesty is always rewarded...... |
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Post by George Maschke on Apr 22, 2003 9:36:59 GMT -5
mikegee, The National Academy of Sciences recently completed a review of polygraph screening and found it to be completely invalid. Actually, he got into LAPD before it adopted its polygraph screening requirement in February 2001. The information on polygraphy found in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector is not my opinion. It's factual, and it's based on documentation that can easily be checked. It's not my purpose to deter anyone from seeking a career in law enforcement. But I think that it is very important that those facing a pre-employment polygraph examination educate themselves beforehand and learn how to protect themselves against the very real danger of a false positive outcome. In the LAPD, for example, about 50% of the candidates who make it as far as the polygraph are "failing" it and being disqualified, all on the basis of a procedure that the National Academy of Sciences says is invalid. It's clear that many truthful applicants are being falsely accused. |
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jmays
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Post by jmays on Apr 22, 2003 12:19:11 GMT -5
blah blah blah blah blah... I cannot believe that I specifically asked that this discussion not be cluttered with anti-polygraph talk, and yet, that is exactly what this discussion is. I find it offensive. If you want to talk about the polygraph George Maschke, then start your own thread and talk about it, but respect my wishes when seeking advise.
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To the others trying to get hits on their website, no one cares. Especially me. 