2 Offenses - 1 Conviction

[NDP1979]

I live in CA, however I go to Lake Havasu, AZ every summer about 10 times. I am 23 now, however when I was 20 I was arrested for mooning a friend (class 1 misdamenor-Disorderly Conduct) and Underage Consumption - I was drunk. I was denied from LAPD for this mistake only for the reason, as I was told, that the arrest took place while in the hiring process. I had taken the written 3-days prior to the incident. At the time of my disqualification, I was told I can reapply in April 2003 - 4 months from now. I have since obtained my Associates Degree in Correctional Science and remained crimianlly clean - untill this summer at Lake Havasu again. I was arrested for disorderly conduct again, however this was not my fault and I have since got a lawyer and is almost dropped - pending a polygraph. This was a simple case of self defense. I know the offenses look like a pattern of imaturity, however they if the recent one is dropped will LAPD, or any PD, still consider or "see" this arrest. I will tell them about it, but will they find out about it?

[guest]

Reconsider your decision to take a polygraph very seriously. They are voodoo witch craft and may harm you more than help you. Get a good lawyer (one that doesn't suggest you take the poly to prove your inoccence!). Read this entire message board for threads on the poly and look over the antipoly.org webpage. They are nothing but bad news. If you want law enforcement you had better fight to resolve this latest arrest hand tooth and nail! As an aside it does look like a pattern to me. You are young and if I was a recruiting cop I would assume you go to this lake to party and drink. I would hold off hiring you for a couple of years. Sory but that is the way it looks to me.

[T.COTE]

Hey,

I beg to differ with the previous post posted by "guest".
I don't believe the polygraph to be voodoo, in fact the entire post seems a little dramatic to me. (Just my opinion)

If you fully believe that this is a case of self defense, the poly isn't going to show otherwise. I have taken a few polys and they were never as bad as everyone made them out to be.

I honestly don't know if they would find out about the charge if it was dropped. I would assume that a good background investigator could find almost anything. Even if he does, just explain it. No cops are saints. Lets be honest most of the cops I know are some of the biggest risk takers I know. They certinly don't have a perfect history either.

You said that happened when you were 20 ( three years ago) and you have aquired a degree since then. I would take this as a sign of maturing.

Again looking from the outside this whole thing sounds like kids stuff, nothing truly worth questioning your character. You didn't get caught selling drugs or abusing anyone.


I say keep in there with your chin up. You only going to go as far as you push yourself.....so push hard!!!!!



Just my thoughts, welcoming others.

T.COTE

[NDP1979]

Thanks for the responses. I will continue to persue this career - I cant see doing anything else. I know I will have to explain both situations to the BI to the "T". This was a case of self defense, therefore I don't see the poly to be a bad thing and the case will be droped. I have taken the poly for LAPD, therefore I know what to expect. Anyone have any other pointers?

Thanks

[guest]

My point regarding the poly was that there is no scientific basis whatsoever to prove the machine can tell if you are lying or not. It measures physiological responses such as blood pressure, sweat response and breathing frequencies and rates. Anyone of these parameters may spike in your body in response to a number of factors. You might be asked about past drug use, get nervous because you know what you did was wrong, spike the machine, the polygrapher chalks it up to a desceptive response and interogates you adnausium thinking you lied. The whole basis behind the poly is that the polygraphers want you to think they can tell when you are lying with this wonderful piece of scientific machinary. They inteogate you before hooking up the machine hoping you will get scared they will find you lying in something and spill your guts to them. That is how it works, there is no machine/person in the world that can tell whether someone is lying or not. If anyone believes that they are grossly misinformed and nieve. The only measure as to how effective a polygrapher is would be to track the number of confessions they say they get during the interogation. This is a scarry method as polygraphers are renouned for fabricating or falsifying confessions to boost their stats and stay in business. Read the antipoly webpage message board and you will find numerous cases where people were labled as desceptive when the polygrapher wrote down a falsified or fabricated confession. Your only recouse in those situations is to request to see the videotape of your poly (which they don't tell you they are recording). In a majority of cases they tell you "sorry but the video has been destroyed as a matter of our policy". I would seriously inform yourself on the poly before submitting to one. Once you do you can never take back what has been stated about your testimony unless you pay for it yourself and then there is a conflict of interest. They are not infalluable and I feel you may be putting yourself at risk. I assume you are form the US. Are polys legal in a court of law there? They aren't here in canada and for good reason. They don't work! I wish you the best of luck.

[NDP1979]

I agree with you, however if I do fail it is not going to really hurt me. This poly is just to prove to the city prosecuter that I had no intent to harm, and in that case it will be dismissed. If I do fail we will have to go to court, where in answer to the above question, the poly is not admisable in court. I am just trying to avoid court and I think this is the way that will be accomplished.

Have you ever taken a poly "guest"? Most PD's here in the states require you pass a poly before you are hired. I have taken one for LAPD and it really wasn't that bad.

[guest]

I can start to see your situation now. I hope you pass and get the arrest thrown out.

As a matter of fact I had applied to a couple of forces here in Canada and took one preemployment poly (the first force I applied to) that has sealed my fate for a career in LE. That is why I am so sour at the whole LE prepoly thing. I fell victim to the fabricated/falsified confesion and it haunted me for all other applications. I have since conceeded my fight to fulfill my dream of becoming a LE officer. It still bothers me though and I feel like I am on a cruisade to make sure other don't get screwed like me.

In a nutshell, I was taking the prepoly interview and was asked to clairfy my past drug history. I told the truth during my interiew (before the poly) that I experomented with drugs (MJ and mushrooms) 3 times in high school. The polygrapher asked me if I was sure and told me to help him out by maybe saying I tried it 10 or 15 times just to clear my mind and conscience before he hooked up the machine. I nievely thought this was part of the poly and said OK lets say I tried drugs 10 times to clear my conscience. The polygrapher writes in his notes that I "confessed" to him to trying drugs 10 times not 3 like I told the police during my interview, was labled a lier and deferred for life. The same thing happened when I told him of an instance in my past where I was a designated driver for friends in highschool. I was having about a glass of wine an hour and towards the end of the night before a 2 block drive home I had a double and drove home to end the night. I told the police this whole story during the interview and the polygrapher writes down (fabricates) I had 5 doubles and was driving around all night intoxicated. Labelled a lier and deferred.

The police force never told me my reason for my deferal and I went on believing I was to young. Years later I tried applying again to about 4 different forces. All came back after the BI stage with deferals. they contacted the original force and they told them of their poly "results" that I lied to them. I tried to get the original poly video reccording to clear my name and they told me they destroyed it years ago as a matter of their force policy and they stick by what the polygrapher wrote down about me. They reserve the right legally to retain that info forever and tell any force they please who comes knocking on their door with the consent to obtain information you have to sign any time you apply.

Sorry for the novel but you can maybe see my frustration when it comes to polys and police forces who use them. I studied the poly in depth and have found it to be nothing more than fear mongering and for lack of a better word witchcraft. Anyone who states other wise is misinformed or a recruitment officer themselves who doesn't want their preemployment screening tool to be unmasked for what it really is. A trap for the nieve and uninformed.

[jmays]

First, you cant say that the poly is "bad" and inform people of its being "wrong" just because some people screwed you over. Its not like the machine was out to get you. For some reason, you weren't liked, and the poly conductor lied about you. Second, you wouldn't have the problem at all if you hadn't done drugs.. My opinion is, its your own fault for failing. It wouldn't have been an issue if you had not done those illegal substances. But anyway -- i know people make mistakes -- but thats just a big one. in my opinion anyway.

[guest]

The lieing polygraphers are rampant and it is a huge failing of the poly and the police forces who implement them. Having a polygrapher lie about me is no fault of mine what so ever. The polygrapher was immoral and a cheat. Plain and simple. As for the drug experimentation, I would have to say that approximately 95 percent of the people I know have experimanted with drugs during high school. I am a professional consultant for the oil patch, people I know who have experimented with drugs like myslef in high school include engineers, doctors, teachers, and yes jmays, people who are now cops themselves. For you to say the falsified confessions they fabricated about me are my fault is immature and preconceived. It is a shame that people like you are trying to become cops with attitudes like "it is your fault because you tried the drugs in the first place". I personally don't think that attitude is very condusive to becoming a compasionate, open minded LE officer. Sad thing is you will probably get hired on somewhere and people like myself get the shaft because the polygrapher didn't like the way I dressed. In my opinion anyway.

[jmays]

Oh good. Im glad to know that since respectable and upstanding people have done drugs in the past, that its okay if I do them! Great, let me go on a big drug binge now. No, like i said before, you got shafted. It was the poly conductors fault -- however, if you had kept your nose clean, it wouldn't have been an issue. How am I wrong for saying that? Just because others have tried it in the past too, its okay? I think not. So umm, don't go off on me because you did drugs. I feel that I am a better candidate because I never did drugs. But thats just my opinion.

[T.COTE]

Guest,

If you don't want to be a cop anymore, why are you hanging around on these sites?

If your personal crusade in life is to convince the public that the poly is a tool of witchcraft, I would change your crusade.

Don't dwell on the past man

T.COTE

P.S. before you ask...yes I am a cop.

[NDP1979]

Calm down guys! This conversation took a turn for the worst somewhere.

In my opinion there is bad cops, like the polygrapher that screwed "guest" and there are bad people, like habitual drug users. I am not saying any of us are either of these, however its how you choose to repond to these "screwed up" situations that is most important. And in response to jmays no drug use, PD's are not ONLY looking for boyscouts, they like people of experience too. I have experimented with marajana (spelling) however I have improved my life and learned from my mistakes and PD's like to see that you can improve and realize mistakes. I told them the truth and passed my poly with flying colors.

In the famous words of a police situation gone totally wrong (for lack of a better word): "Can't we all just get along"

[A]

jmays
Your logic is exactly the type used by people that the police don't want to hire. Talk about short sighted and narrow. He got what he deserved because he used drugs? He mentioned that right out at the beginning. Do you go around blaming victims of crimes as well? I could see you out on your first rape victim assignment. "So miss you have had sex before and you were wearing those cloths?" Get the point?
Also I studied the polygraph at University durring my psychology courses and also in 3rd year criminology. Guest is right. They use control questions to try and set up a measurement on you, so it gives the process a quasi scientific backing. The reality is that it can't tell what you're thinking and that human error from both the examiner and the examinee can affect the outcome. The anti-polygraph site has some good info. It is worth the read, and the current studies with the polygraph support what they say. The reality is that most people are stupid, so they are tricked into it working or confess. It allows the police to interogate you. One of my Profesors who worked with multiple police forces around the world (Europe, States and Canada) stated that, you should never take a polygraph whether you are innocent or guilty. He even went as far to say "especially if you are inocent". There are no benefits. It can not prove you are inocent. It really is a no win situation for the person taking it. Give me a damn good background check instead. You'll find out everything about me and better yet I won't feel like I'm being treated as a criminal. Make that an especially stupid criminal (for agreeing to take the test).

[guest]

jmays,

I didn't mean to sound so confrontational during my reply but I let the stream come to a head and responded accordingly when it sounded like you blame me for what happend. I am definately on a sort of crusade to try and help other to be aware of the joke behind the poly. If I had someone or a great board like this to reference before I took my first poly I would probably be working the streets right now doing my best to help people.

Like I said before, the only people going to defend the preemployment poly are the cop types (no real offence T COTE) because they know how it saves them time and money and potential future lawsuits against the department when the uneducated candidate freaks and spills the beans during the interrogation. In situations like that I guess it does work to everyones benefit however the problems associated with it far outway the gains.

I was young and nieve and fell righ into the most common trap of the prepoly intorogation. I know now that I shoud have stuck to my guns and refused to say I tried drugs 10 times for the sake of clearing my conscience! The only thing I am guilty of was being to eager, young, and neive.

The point that really angers me is the police are continually saying they want people of the utmost moral fiber yet they hipocritically exude the opposite to the recruits. They withhold the fact that they videotape the poly (against the law), they coerce you into taking the poly (they tell you that you don't have to take the poly but there isn't a single serving officer on this force that hasn't), they ask you illegal questions during the interogation (questions regarding your sexual preference, sexual history, etc), and their polygraphers falsify statements (I am sure not all of them but reading the antipooly webpage realy opens your eyes as to how frequent it is) to fabricate confessions therby padding their stats. "A" is right on the money when he says don't, under any circumstance take a poly, it does more harm than good. Those are my two bits.

[jmays]

<<"So miss you have had sex before and you were wearing those cloths?" Get the point?>>

I had to read that several times to get some sort of point out of it, and yet I came up with nothing. No point. How is being a rape victim anything close to willing take an illegal substance? Its not. They aren't even in the same realm. I totally don't understand why you mentioned rape.