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Post by mikegee on Dec 3, 2003 7:50:02 GMT -5
I'm sure by now that many of you have seen the confrontation at the White Castle burger joint that led to the death of a 400 lb susp on PCP .Many are going to play up the Black vs. White race issue or the opinions odf excessive force. ( I've already heard quite a few people actually "see" things that weren't even visible in the CCTV recording). Despite the race or age or size of a suspect, once the fight is on, you must and will use the min. force necessary to overcome the threat posed to you.If any of you here are applying for an agency and think that you don't have to or won't have to fight a suspect(s)-you are in fanstasy land! Sadly the suspect died in custody -congestive heart failure,of which the PCP probably had a part.Good tactics and command presence will win the day most of the time, but out and out fighting is a reality today, as people of all ages and backgrounds have less respect for the rule of law.The job of a police officer ( constable,agent ,trooper,deputy) is that of a peace officer-meaning you are empowered to keep the peace( and yes, that means up to the use of deadly force if required).Remember this, police officer have rules to control their actions- suspects don't. A dead Suspect gets mountains of media attention, a law suit and countless neighborhood memorials, as well as causes change in police procedures. a dead cop gets a small byline in the back of the paper, and a 2 hr funeral......
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Post by journey2cps-redux on Dec 3, 2003 10:30:43 GMT -5
Amen Brother! I strongly hope that there are no charges brought against the officers involved. I'm not going to get into this too much since it still pisses me off...  (Rage building...) 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8...better now. Will talk later...  |
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Post by Guest on Dec 3, 2003 14:27:53 GMT -5
I'm sure by now that many of you have seen the confrontation at the White Castle burger joint that led to the death of a 400 lb susp on PCP .Many are going to play up the Black vs. White race issue or the opinions odf excessive force. ( I've already heard quite a few people actually "see" things that weren't even visible in the CCTV recording). Despite the race or age or size of a suspect, once the fight is on, you must and will use the min. force necessary to overcome the threat posed to you.If any of you here are applying for an agency and think that you don't have to or won't have to fight a suspect(s)-you are in fanstasy land! Sadly the suspect died in custody -congestive heart failure,of which the PCP probably had a part.Good tactics and command presence will win the day most of the time, but out and out fighting is a reality today, as people of all ages and backgrounds have less respect for the rule of law.The job of a police officer ( constable,agent ,trooper,deputy) is that of a peace officer-meaning you are empowered to keep the peace( and yes, that means up to the use of deadly force if required).Remember this, police officer have rules to control their actions- suspects don't. A dead Suspect gets mountains of media attention, a law suit and countless neighborhood memorials, as well as causes change in police procedures. a dead cop gets a small byline in the back of the paper, and a 2 hr funeral...... I have spoken to a few other blacks to get their opinions on this case and not one agreed that it had anything to do with race. We all thought that this unfortunate incident was brought on by 1) The suspects weight 2) Heart Condition 3) Drugs. I strongly suspect that the media, is the one who is trying to make money by playing on a very divisive issue. I guess they would have prefered the officers to stand still and get crushed by a 400 pound guy. This sort of stuff is irritating at times because it takes away from the REAL cases of racial discrimination. |
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Post by PATrooper4347 on Dec 3, 2003 16:04:58 GMT -5
I just had a discussion with some people about this matter, the issue of excess of force is always a heated debate. I ve only herd sketchy details about the incident and the action the officer's took. I rarley listen to the media on subjects like this one because the media like juice up the story to get better raitings. The media will always use the race card to add some spice to a story, something I find to be rather digusting.
The police are in general viewed in a negative light because they are the represenatives of the governement, and generally most people do not have postive encounter's with the police. Usually if the police are involved some sort of negative occurence has happened.
Back to the issue at hand, if anyone might be able to better inform me of what happend, let me know if you are aware of how the police encountered this person, if he resisted or iniated the confrontation, and did the police use the necessary force (for example, did the suspect surrender or did he fight til the end.) Im interested to see what your thoughts are on this situation before I read into it from the media.
Thanks, Stay safe
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Impy
Full Member
Posts: 48
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Post by Impy on Dec 3, 2003 17:13:47 GMT -5
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Post by lich on Dec 3, 2003 18:32:50 GMT -5
The medical report on the subject came in today. The man was found to be grossly overweight, he had an enlarged heart, and cocaine in his blood stream. The official cause of death was determined to be homicide, but the medical examiner has stressed this classification is based on the manor of death, not in the use of force.
In other words, he did not overdose or commit suicide. He died as a result of his injuries. The question is whether the injuries sustained were a result of excessive force.
Watch the tape. The officers are trying to subdue the subject. They don't shoot him, they don't hit him in the head with their batons. The force used is an effort to get the man to stop resisting, but with drugs in his blood stream and at such a high weight, there isn't much else an officer can do to stop a fighting subject.
Whenever one of these stories come out, I put myself in the officers' shoes. You have to imagine yourself standing there against a 400 pound subject on drugs who wants to fight. How are you going to arrest him?
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Post by mikegee on Dec 4, 2003 11:20:37 GMT -5
PAtrooper,Lich- I've seen this happen before, and trust me ,his heart blew out from the stress.There will also be issues of lateral asphyxiation and the drug combo issue(cocaine,PCP were pesent) Cincinnati is struggling with tremendous amounts of inner city crime and unemployment right now( but everywhere in N.America its that way)The physical altercation with the officers also contributed, but I believe the officer used an ASP type baton,not a PR -24 or straight stick-that would cause whelping and bruising, but on a larger person, the heavier muscle and fat tissue lessens the effectiveness of the force used ,Rev Jesse Jackson has already "jumped on the bandwagon" and demanded a Fed. and state civil rights inv.(God knows I wish we could get somebody else to lead the Black community instead of his tired butt!) and the local NAACP has raged that it was another example of police brutality! Cincinnati had a race riot less than 2 yrs ago, and with inner city frustration being what it is-no jobs,drugs and crime everywhere-people want something or someone to blame! Demogogues,no matter what race they are often go after the "minority" in there community (ala Hitler) or blame the weakest and most visible link in gov't -the lowly cops.
Does anyone ask what this obese individual was doing a 6am high on drugs and walking the streets?!!.Will Rev. Jesse hold a rally to PROTEST against the drug houses that sold that poor man his" ticket" to the coroners' slab???!!! NOPE! A friend asked me,rather naively if I've ever had to "Beat up" a white person on the job. She said she has never heard of white people getting treated like blacks or hisps during arrests.She didn't understand that the media doesn't see a white person fighting police (unless its some touchy feely-anti- gov't protest) as interesting as the stereotypical "PIG" or the "MAN" beating down some underpriviledge person of color. Misery and shock sells and TV news wants ratings like the sitcoms that follow them! I told her that 1) police officers don't "beat up people" and 2) yes, I've used to force(when needed) to arrest alot of people,white,black,asian-it didn't matter the color. I also told her that race and the use of force aren't a factor like some political radicals like to make it out to be. I wondered the what ifs-did they have a Taser unit available?when did they deploy OC or CN/CS spray? When was the last time the officers were given a use of force or less lethal training class?Could they have waited for add'l units? Why were they deployed in (1) officer units? -FBI stats show those type of units to be the most likely to be assaulted. The family of the victim have a right to address their grievances against the gov't in this issue, but it doesn't make them right,nor does it make the officers wrong-I doubt very seriously that the officers got out of their cars with any intent to kill or harm that man .I also know from training and experience that any incident you can go to could lead to a violent confrontation.period. The only sad part is that City gov't will go on the hardened defensive and political leaders like "Jesse" will use this sad incident not for a change in the community, but to smite the face of the power structure they "black mail" for money and recognition routinely, and the "beat" goes on with overworked,underpressure cops, poor forgotten and embittered inner city folk , and little change........
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Post by mikegee on Dec 4, 2003 11:32:08 GMT -5
P.S. what did I tell ya???!! That NY Daily article impy posted sure didn't say anything about when the suspect charged police and hit an officer repeatedly,all the while yelling" I'm going to get you,White Boy!!!" Yep, The media is reckless as the very headline reads" Supect dies after Cop Beating" and did you just love how they put in his impassioned cry of "momma"? ( not suspect dies after fight with police or after police confrontation).I guess I'll lay low at work today as I wouldn't want to be in the L.A. news as Black cops beat "innocent"( drug addicted,violent, career criminal) white "citizen". I too, as a citizen and a police officer want a fair and just society- but when will any allow the truth to be told? when will people accept their mistakes and work for change? Not as long as we let the media and a few Demogogues do all our thinking......
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Post by PATrooper4347 on Dec 4, 2003 13:04:54 GMT -5
Well I was out last night with some friends at the bar, and I watched the tape of this confrontation over and over last night as some news show was "analyzing" what happened. I don't know the expertise of the newscaster's or the activists watching this tape. Most of the comments I herd were as the white police officer's beat this person, this defenseless black man.
I watched as family commented that this person was a "gentle giant" and everyone who came in contact with him loved him, which all may be true, he may have been a compassionate man, and a good man, but during this time he was not himself, he was high as a kite on some strong substances.
Now as I watched the tape I noticed a few things that were not brought to light. First, the police opted to turn the camera on, the officer realized a confrontation was probable so he keyed on his dash cam. Secondly, this gentle giant takes a haymaker punch for the officer's head knocking his hat off, but had this big guy connected that officer would have been down for the count. Now I don't know about everyone else but the last time I checked if, you took a swing at a cop it meant trouble for you. Third, As the police used thier batons to subdue him they were hitting him in the legs, around the femur, the area where the police are trained to strike to subdue a violent suspect, and during this confrontation he grabbed the officer's baton, another big no no! Grabbing an officer's weapon is a serious threat to that officer. If this person had any sense he would have surrendered, and that would have ended that -- Had the officers continued to beat him after a surrender then we have police bruatality!
Now of course all those media experts who never walked a day in an officer's shoes say the police should have acted in one way or not, I belive there is no way to know what that officer was thinking, or how threatend he felt. I feel they were warranted in thier use of force. What was he supposed to do? Just run from this guy! People don't realize the baton is not for decoration on an officer's belt, it is a tool that during confrontations can be used to defend and subdue violent subjects, and from what I saw this guy was far from a cooperative subject. It only my opinion of course, but I doubt you would ever see this side on TV! It's not good ratings to defend those cops who "beat" that poor defenseless man!!
Stay Safe out there folks!
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Post by Charlie on Dec 5, 2003 17:00:07 GMT -5
This incident is tragic. And the lame arguements and excuses for the deceased dirt bag have been wearing thin. Sadly, what it amounts to in my book is the following:
-- MONEY $$$! - This dead guy's family is going to come out of the woodwork! Aunts, Uncles, cousins, distant cousins, etc. People he probably ain't seen nor heard from in 100-years! All wanting nothing but a piece of the action too. And you know what? I think the odds are VERY MUCH in favor they'll get a hefty settlement, probably in outrageous millions, from the city after all is said and done!!!
Oh yeah,...what will the cops get???... Most probable:
-- Cops - Losing their jobs and being dismissed from the force with a ruined career AND, facing a very real possibility of going to prison. Of course, this doesn't take into consideration the other casualties --- their families or loved ones. Other factors that will likely disrupt their lives and their families': death threats and harassment by both phone or in person, in-your-face media, damage to reputation, damage to property / vandalism, financial ruin, health problems caused by the stress, possible loss of friendships. etc.
I don't know everything there is to know about this case but from all indications that I've heard about, it appears very favorable the officers acted with justifiable force against this individual. But it also appears they've already been tried and convicted by the media and activists.
It's scary...where does the insanity end...?
--
Charlie
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