LAPD polygraph test results don't tell full truth

[George Maschke]

The following article was published in the Los Angeles Daily News on Thursday, November 1st and is also on-line at:

www.dailynews.com/opinions/articles/1101/01/lvew01.asp

LAPD polygraph test results don't tell full truth

By George W. Maschke

LOS Angeles has awarded a $615,000 noncompetitive contract to a company to give polygraph tests to Los Angeles Police Department recruits, paying double the going rate for lie-detector experts.
Phyllis Lynes, assistant general manager for the Personnel Department's Public Safety Bureau, has defended the contract, saying, "The other alternative was not to staff the Police Department, and that's not an acceptable alternative."

A better alternative is to scrap the polygraph altogether.

Since February, when polygraph testing began, the LAPD has branded roughly half of the otherwise qualified applicants polygraphed as liars.

I have heard from numerous LAPD applicants who claim they were falsely accused of deception. One writes, "Here I was, thinking I was well on my way to serving LAPD with integrity and honor, being accused of not only being a druggie, but a liar as well."

Another notes, "I was told that if I tell the truth I have nothing to worry about; boy, was I wrong."

Those falsely accused of deception have little or no avenue of appeal.

Polygraph testing is no science. It depends instead on trickery. The polygrapher, while admonishing the examinee to answer all questions truthfully, secretly assumes that denials in response to certain questions -- called "control" questions -- will be untrue, or that the examinee will at least have doubts.

One commonly used control question is, "Did you ever lie to a supervisor?" The polygrapher steers the examinee into a denial by suggesting that anyone who would lie to a supervisor is unsuitable for hire.

The polygrapher scores the test by comparing physiological reactions to these probable-lie control questions with reactions to relevant questions such as, "Have you ever used an illegal drug?" If the former reactions are greater, the examinee passes; if the latter are greater, he fails. This simplistic methodology has not been validated by peer-reviewed scientific research.

Agencies value the polygraph because naive and gullible examinees sometimes make disqualifying admissions, saving the agency valuable time and resources.

But in the process, many truthful persons are being wrongly accused.

Perversely, the test is biased against the very straight-arrows the LAPD needs because the more honestly one answers the control questions, and as a consequence feels less stress when answering them, the more likely one is to fail.

Conversely, liars can beat the test by covertly augmenting their physiological reactions to the control questions. This can be done by constricting the anal sphincter muscle, biting the side of the tongue, or merely thinking exciting thoughts. Detailed information on countermeasures (methods for defeating the polygraph) may be found on the Web site AntiPolygraph.org.

While polygraphers claim that any experienced examiner can easily detect countermeasures, peer-reviewed research has shown that they cannot.

Indeed, the American Polygraph Association quarterly has not published a single article explaining how to reliably detect polygraph countermeasures.

Nobody wants a repeat of the Rampart corruption incident. But pseudoscientific polygraph tests that are biased against the truthful yet easily defeated by liars are not the answer.

Instead, LAPD should scrap the polygraph and devote more resources to genuine background investigations.

[guest]

Hell ya!

[mikegee]

Okay!!! Now this is where I KNOW you don't know what you're talking about! I said I'd leave the poly issue to you,Geo, but guess what? You're in my hometowns back yard on the issue.I read the article ,and it was about the typical shortages in the city of L.A. to adequately and quickly process applicants .But according to you ,roughly 50% of the applicants are being D.Q'ed at the poly.Well Geo, I've had (8) friends apply and get hired to LAPD in the last (2) yrs!!!.They spanned the economic and ethnic spectrum- (3) were wht males,(2) hisp,(1) Blk male,(1) asian female,(1) blk female- They ALL passed the poly!!!! that sounds like 100% to me- but hey, somebodies going to fail it-must be a "knuckle head".What was the old expression- "if at first you don't succeed, try ,try again?" If those so-called "50%" were honest and were unfairly D.Q'ed, then they should reapply or apply else where where the standards are "lower" (oopps! Thats NOWHERE in So/No.Calif! Almost all agencies here have the same or equal background process!!!!!!).As I've said before,unless some major law suit shuts the poly down, Agencies will continue to use it as a process.And applicants have to realize this....

[journey2cps-redux]

Heard from a reliable source today a failure/success story in regards to the poly...There is an RCMP member that initially applied to both Calgary and RCMP...Made it all the way to the poly with Calgary and failed!! So he called his RCMP case manager and told him what happened...

APP: " I was just defered from CPS for failing the poly!!"
RCMP: " That's good because we want you to come work for us."

So just cause you fail a poly doesn't mean you're down and out...

[George Maschke]

mikegee said:

Okay!!! Now this is where I KNOW you don't know what you're talking about! I said I'd leave the poly issue to you,Geo, but guess what? You're in my hometowns back yard on the issue.I read the article ,and it was about the typical shortages in the city of L.A. to adequately and quickly process applicants .But according to you ,roughly 50% of the applicants are being D.Q'ed at the poly.Well Geo, I've had (8) friends apply and get hired to LAPD in the last (2) yrs!!!.They spanned the economic and ethnic spectrum- (3) were wht males,(2) hisp,(1) Blk male,(1) asian female,(1) blk female- They ALL passed the poly!!!! that sounds like 100% to me- but hey, somebodies going to fail it-must be a "knuckle head".What was the old expression- "if at first you don't succeed, try ,try again?" If those so-called "50%" were honest and were unfairly D.Q'ed, then they should reapply or apply else where where the standards are "lower" (oopps! Thats NOWHERE in So/No.Calif! Almost all agencies here have the same or equal background process!!!!!!).As I've said before,unless some major law suit shuts the poly down, Agencies will continue to use it as a process.And applicants have to realize this....

The 50% LAPD polygraph failure rate has been reported by the L.A. Public Safety Hiring Division as well as the Chief of Police. See, for example:

antipolygraph.org/news/polygraph-news-008.shtml#leovy-gold-09-02-02

[mikegee]

LOLOLOLOLOL!!! Gotta' love a man with passion for what he "knows"!!!! Geo, have you ever been to L.A. !!! Even funnier/scarier- have you EVER SEEN who shows up for the test at Fairfax H.S. Wilshire Div LAPD, or the Academy on Saturday???!!!!!!! Trust me, even if the poly is flawed, YOU REALLY DON'T want some of these applicants to PASS and become Police officers.

The testing process is open to the general public, and the vast majority are people with very little in common with the lifestyle that makes up a police officer. Many just see it as a "Job opportunity"-they make excuses for drug use, hanging out with the criminal element,poor financial or career history, and even physical and mental deficiencies.I'm not sounding elitist , but a large portion of people applying are not SUITED for the job-and those are often honest,good people. I'm talking about the knuckle heads out there.They fool themsleves into believing that they can get on the job and their past "sins" will be forgotten.Its those guys that often fail the poly .Even if the polygraph is nothing more than a "boogeyman" and "hocus-pocus" as you compare it to, it is a wall. A "wall" that SCARES the bad applicants .And to the avg,qualified,honest and dedicated candidate, that "wall" will be climbed or knocked out of the way so they can reach their goal of being hired.........P.S. "Journey to CPS" ,thats how it works many times, the poly is interpretive,like any other part of the backgrounds.Humans control it and humanity is imperfect( I've seen candidates D.Q'ed because the Back grounds investigator "had a bad feeling" about the applicant,even after they passed the poly and B.I!!!)

[George Maschke]

mikegee,

Let's see. You accused me of "not knowing what [I'm] talking about" when I spoke of LAPD's 50% pre-employment polygraph rate. I then back up that statement with documentation. But rather than concede the point, you change the subject and now ask whether I've even been to L.A., as if that were somehow relevant to my knowledge of the LAPD's polygraph failure rate. (As a matter of fact, I have been to L.A. My alma mater is UCLA.)

No doubt unqualified applicants do apply for LAPD, just as they do for other departments. But an invalid test that is easily beaten by deceptive applicants and wrongly brands many truthful applicants as liars is an unethical way to go about narrowing the applicant pool.

[mikegee]

Darn, and I was going to start the year off right! I've passed the poly before and failed it before(I've applied for two other agencies,since being hired by the City of L.A. ) am I a liar? no! The poly is interpretive, and on at least quite a few occassion ,Geo, I've agreed with you on the FLAWED part of that!!! Whether it can ruin your chances of getting into a law enforcement agency forever? NO!!!!! Ted Bundy passed the poly,and he was a sociopath,so "yes" untruthful people do pass!,and sometimes good people don't (I applied to LBPD as a lateral and didn't pass ,but a yr later I applied for LASD and passed-I had nothing to hide in either test) bottom line- it is PART OF THEIR PROCESS.I have personally known far too many people that have passed the poly for several area agencies to say that it is a total impediment to the hiring process.Unless someone like you and your anti-poly legions go to court on the issue,the process stands-as far a that one article on the 50%+ failure rate,i'd check that against other area agencies testing; if it is roughly the same,you'll probably say they're flawed too-if it is lower,you'll say LAPD is a big scam for putting the darned thing into its process-either way,theres NO making you happy,Geo!!!

I'll even agree with you on this issue-LAPD probably uses it to scare off questionable candidates as well as to satisfy the Federal consent decree issue (with FBIs fingers up your rear ,you'd jump for anything to make them stop!!!). Novel idea-take the test,post your results,show us how to beat the system!!!Who knows ,Geo- as a basic LAPD line officer,you'd get the chance to do what we all do here, thumb your nose at a FEE BEE agent( you make more money as an officer like the rest of us,and LAPD badge( or even an LASD,Torrance, CA PD,or Beverly Hills PD badge) is more impressive to the locals and at family gatherings than the Hoover boyz badge.And when did you hear the last time an FBI agent solved a homicide?; I just booked a guy for 664/187 PC -didn't see an FBI agent around!!!!My yr to date was $103,508 with a little O.T.(like to see what an FBI agent locally made in 2003!!!) You'd finally get to avenge yourself against the "gry overcoat boys" as I'm sure that your intellegence would put you into a cozy Detective spot and away from us smelly p-2s in patrol cars... Have a nice New Year,anyway......

[mikegee]

and P.S. use the ACLU-they'll file a "frivolous" law suit against local goverment and tie up $$$$$$ dollars that could be BETTER used to resurface L.A. streets,and keep the parks clean and usable for the children and senior citizens.They just loved getting all those thugs,gangsters,dopers,thieves,rapists,robbery suspects freed using the "Rampart scandal" as a trump card (never seen an ACLU lawyer living in Central L.A or Southend!!!! I'm sure they'd be too scaried to live near their "victimzied" clients) .They'd take your Anti-poly case, Geo ( if they haven't already).The ACLU loves to bash cops and any law enforcement practice( or anything that stands for right,or order).I'm just waiting for the day when one of them becomes a victim of crime.........

[journey2cps-redux]

Just a curious question for anyone out there...

Has anyone ever failed a poly, then read George's book (TLBTLD), then retaken a poly and passed?? Just wondering if anyone has actually applied the "knowledge" that has been provided...

I mean who knows, maybe George is actually an advocate of the polygraph and creates all this (mis)information to screw over completely honest applicants from passing their poly!! Oh maybe I'm just being parinoid...Hey is that cat staring at me....what was that clicking noise!!! AAAAAHHHHH *runs away screaming*

[guest]

Journey,

Check out Georges web page. Many people have done what you mentioned though I doubt you would believe them. You maintain that "I am going to be a cop" attitude and side with the other cops here in your posts. If you get on with CPS please come back here and tell us what you really think of the poly. If you don't get on it will be because of the poly and we can read your change in attitude to reflect those of us who have been wrongfully labelled deceptive.

If you studied the poly you would know that it is baseless and completely unscientific.

[journey2cps-redux]

Guest,

Guess my last post was a little one sided...I don't disagree with you, the poly is pretty much useless piece of equipment; I personally would prefer that I didn't have to take a poly, but unfortunately, if I want to be a cop, I have to take it and pass it, fact of life. I understand that honest applicants get labled deceptive incorrectly, just like yourself with CPS, which is why I posted the question above. Take yourself for example, have you since taken a poly with any other service? I know you applied to RCMP, and they gave you you a thanks but no thanks at the end of everything, but what about Edmonton, or Lethbridge, or even Regina? They are all good forces, but all use the poly as part of the process. Why not use your knowledge of the poly and how it works to "beat" (not the right word maybe) it and finally achieve your goal of LE?? Finally prove to the examiner in Calgary that "Hey buddy! Guess what? You were WRONG about me!!" know what I mean?

[mikegee]

Thank you, J2CPS- I've said that to Geo, and I challenge "Guest" to do the same! Failure is not an option, and too many people pass the darned "test", so I believe that it has something to do with ones own back ground issues, as well as the interpretation by the examiner.Guest ,use Geos' info-reapply to CPS or RCMP-BEAT THE TEST(for lack of better words).J2CPS,maybe you should also look up some of that polygraph info as well as ask your CPS recruiter for whatever info he/she can give you( just to better your chances)-it can't hurt.But to just throw out a blanket statement that you're screwed forever ,no "Guest",I refuse to believe that.Thats a "quiters" mentality, and as you've seen people here aren't quiters-they're realisitc about the challenge, and many are patient."guest " you'll see J2CPS having a coffee break at some local starbucks ,talking to other CPS and RCMP officers one day-they'll be talking about war stories and might even bring up this site in a "remember when " conversation. I hope when that happens you won't burn with that "what if " feeling.Georges' web site and opinions aren't the GOSPEL-they're just his take on the issue,mixed in with some of his/ others own bad experiences. A jaundiced opinion of the process is just as bad as being naive-neither will help you succeed......

[guest]

Journey,

I truely hope you pass your poly and come back here and rub it in my face.

I did try applying to all those other forces you mentioned. Same thing with all. They called CPS and used their poly results to DQ mw from all their processes. No chance to retake the poly. No chance to explain what happened with CPS. They just blindly believed the CPS poly results and screwed me. All police forces here seem to be one big happy family of clouded ignorant people that think the poly actually works. Sorry bastrads. I think they missed out on an excellent recruit.

The only way I could even get to the point of taking another poly with some force would be to lie on my application when they ask if I have ever applied and been DQ from any other police force. I am not about to do that. I have no problems taking another poly and using CM's to ensure I don't get wrongly labelled deceptive but I can't even get to that point. I exhausted all options.

What can you do but move on and hope others don't make the same mistake I did.

Good luck.

[mikegee]

Guest,once again,excues me for not knowing how Canadian forces work , but it sounds like you really have a basis for a law suit if that is truly what other agencies you've applied for have told you (sounds like some B.I. "B.S" to me).Canada is broken down into provinces like the U,S. has states, and each state does its own thing.Even here in Calif. each city will get you to sign a "waiver" so they can contact other sources regarding your back ground, but they all do there own back grounds on you( in the beginning of my desire to get into the field, I was D.Q.ed for the poly(South Gate,CA PD- thank God I didn't go there as they make way less than I do now, and are constantly the center of scandals!),deferred for medical( L.A. Comm.Colleges PD) .passed poly but was placed on waiting list (L.A. County Sheriffs,Pomona ,CA PD,) and offered conditional job offers when they got to my score and position (Culver City ,CA PD, Defunct Compton ,CA PD, Defunct L.A. Metro Transit Auth. PD). The reason I listed the above is because agencies DO share your dirty secrets as it becomes their "dirty secrets",but they still give you a chance. You're like a "buddy" of mine- while I made it after only trying for an agency in (18) months-(10) tests ,(5) agencies offering the job and (6)months of academy training,it took him almost (9) yrs to make his dream come true-is it worth (9) yrs to you? Try something that might also satisfy the law enforcement desire like Campus Police officer or transit Police officer.It may be a situation where you have to "slug it out "step by step to get to what you want. I still refuse to believe that the poly is the only thing holding you up...Don't just give it up.......


I'd get names, file appeals, and doggedly reapply,just to clear my name( I am a VERY PERSISTENT Person). If you really believe Geo's website,then put the info to good use-Go get your PD job!( personally I think he's crazy like some of the homeless out here in dwntwn L.A. that yell alot at invisible "friends"-i.e- "I hate HATE YOU EVIL POLYGRAPH!!!! STOP FOLLOWING ME,I DON'T LIKE PURPLE SANDWICHES!!!!!"") LOLOLOLOL!!!!! face it ,for now the polygraph is here to stay, and like Al Davis of the Oakland Raiders sez, "Just win,baby"-"Guest" just pass the test,Baby..........